Talk:Axis powers

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Frequently asked questions

Q1: Why is country X included in the list of Axis countries in the infobox?

A1: Because reliable sources, cited in the article, describe it as an Axis country. If you think that a country presently included in this list should NOT be included in it, please describe why reliable sources do not support it being included here, and if possible provide sources backing up this position. Particularly in the case of Finland, this has been discussed many, many times, so please review the talk-page archive to see if you have any new points to raise on this topic.

Q2: Why is country X NOT included in the list of Axis countries included in the infobox?

A2: Only the countries for which reliable sources have been found, describing the country unambiguously as a member of the Axis, should be included. If you think a country should be added to the list, please provide reliable sources that clearly and unambiguously state that they were members of the Axis. Please note that particularly Vichy France, Iraq, Spain, the Soviet Union, and the various puppet-states of the Axis outside of the ones that are included in this list have been discussed a large number of times here, so please review the discussions before opening a new discussion to see if the point you want to make has already been discussed.

Q3: Why aren't only Tripartite Pact signatories included as Axis members in the infobox?

A3: Because this article is not about the Tripartite Pact, which has its own article. Similarly, it is also not about the Anti-Comintern Pact. Instead it is about the Axis, which reliable sources describe as having a membership different to that of the Tripartite Pact and the Anti-Comintern Pact.

Q4: Why aren't puppet states and colonies included as Axis members in the infobox?

A4: Some puppet states may be included as members of the Axis powers where there are reliable sources stating that this is what they were, however, where no source says that a country was a member of the Axis, simply having been a puppet state or colony of a member of the Axis is insufficient to make it a member of the Axis if reliable sources do not describe it as such.

Q5: Why are other states, that were not members of the Axis, discussed in the body-text of the article?

A5: States and movements that had notable relations with the Axis, for example states the leadership of which gave serious consideration to joining the Axis, should be discussed to the extent relevant. Relevance should be decided in consensus with other editors - if in doubt, please discuss on the talk page here.

Q6: Why was membership of the Axis, as listed in the infobox, decided to only include those clearly and unambiguously described as being members of the Axis in reliable sources?

A6: In a discussion on the talk page in January 2021 it was decided to remove all countries which no reliable sources clearly described as being a member of the Axis. The reasoning was that by including countries that no reliable source actually identified as Axis powers but which some editors had characterised as "Axis co-belligerents", a term with no basis in reliable sources, we were essentially engaging in original research and going outside the topic of the article, which is about the Axis powers and not about wars fought parallel to the wars fought by the Axis.

Q7: I disagree with the criteria used to determine what should be included as a member of the Axis in this article!

A7: Consensus can change, please feel free to open a discussion here about how you think the article should address the question of which states should be included as members of the Axis in this article. Please also review the prior discussions in the archive to see whether your proposed way of deciding Axis membership has already been discussed.

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Map needed

It is requested that a global map or maps be included in this article to improve its quality.

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 9 March 2024

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Why is Iraq not listed in the infobox? They were a full-fledged member of the Axis. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anglo-Iraqi_War https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1941_Iraqi_coup_d%27%C3%A9tat Ironzombie39 (talk) 00:23, 9 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. The FAQ at the top says "Only the countries for which reliable sources have been found, describing the country unambiguously as a member of the Axis, should be included." As discussed previously, co-belligerents of the Axis are not considered members of the Axis and hence do not go in the infobox. The question of including Iraq in the infobox has also been discussed multiple times (see the archives), and consensus has also been against inclusion. Liu1126 (talk) 23:40, 9 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

so we add Finland and croatia but not iraq?

I don't get your logic here Sanad real (talk) 03:56, 29 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

iraq is literally blue on the map on the allies article Sanad real (talk) 01:28, 30 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Hi @Sanad real. On Wikipedia, facts that can be challenged (which definitely includes which states were Axis powers) need to be clearly supported by reliable sources. Wikipedia, including the map on the page about the Allies, is not a reliable source.

For Iraq, there is no source saying it was ever a member of the Axis powers. If we look at what the sources say, we can see that it is not clearly considered to have been an Axis power during the few months that Rashid Ali was in power. For example, this source points out that Germany and Italy had no desire to make deals with Arab states since Italy wanted the Middle East as part of its empire and Germany saw the Arab states as a distration from its upcoming invasion of the USSR. The source also states that no formal alliance was ever concluded.

For Finland and Croatia, there are ample sources stating that they were members of the Axis powers which you can find in the article. For Iraq those sources don't appear to exist. If you are aware of a reliable source that clearly and unambiguously describes Iraq as a member of the Axis powers, please let us know. FOARP (talk) 07:40, 4 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Issues with the map of participants in the info-box

Regarding the map of participants in the info-box, it contains inaccuracies:

The USSR is listed as having switched sides from the Axis to the Allies, which is in between complete falsehood and utter lunacy. Neither the Molotov-Ribbentrop pact nor the joint-but-time-offset German-Soviet invasion of Poland ever made the USSR a member of the Axis, especially not de jure.

Ethiopia is listed as having switched sides, but how can a colonial government (Italian East Africa) "switch sides" when it was disbanded altogether and replaced with a British military administration?

If Ethiopia is listed as having switches sides, then Italy should have certainty been included in the list as well, but it was not. The situation with the Italian Social Republic complicates the matter, but since France is already dealt with separately (on the map) in terms of Vichy France and German-occupied France, the same could be done with Italy (showing the Italian Social Republic borders at establishment in blue, and the rest of Italy in blue but with a "switched sides from the Axis to the Allies" marker).

212.243.68.210 (talk) 12:58, 9 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Ethiopia went from being an Italian colony to one that had been liberated and Ethiopia's full sovereignty was restored with the signing of the Anglo-Ethiopian Agreement in December 1944 (duing Ww2). Slatersteven (talk) 13:02, 9 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
We do not list the USSR as a member of the Axis. Slatersteven (talk) 13:03, 9 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The map is garbage. It might well be better not to have it. FOARP (talk) 10:16, 12 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
This is not the first time problems with the map have been raised. Other discussions where problems with the map have been raised include:
Talk:Axis_powers/Archive_13#inaccuracies_in_the_map

Talk:Axis_powers/Archive_12#Map

Talk:Axis_powers/Archive_12#Map_2

Talk:Axis_powers/Archive_6#The_map_from_https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/c/c0/WWII.png/280px-WWII.png

Talk:Axis_powers/Archive_5#The_map_shows_the_Axis_powers_wrong._Finland_was_not_a_part_of_the_Axis,_as_also_the_Allied_leaders_concluded_in_Tehran

Talk:Axis_powers/Archive_5#Map_is_a_poor_descriptive_image_for_the_subject_matter

For this reason I am removing the map as a WP:BOLD move simply because it is not a good illustration for this article. FOARP (talk) 13:42, 23 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Don't care about the map, but this article cannot have the same lead image as Tripartite Pact. It will only further conflation. Srnec (talk) 03:32, 24 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I'm fine with this change. If there were a colour poster or similar then that would be even better but I'm not aware of one. PS - this looks good, but we'd need a hi-res copy, and to be sure that it's free-to-use (it probably is, but that's not good enough). FOARP (talk) 10:34, 16 August 2024 (UTC) FOARP (talk) 10:26, 16 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 18 August 2024

This edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request.

Add Oxford commas. 64.189.18.44 (talk) 15:59, 18 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Not done Not clear what the request is. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format. The Banner talk 16:34, 18 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Maps

See Talk:Allies of World War II#Maps. -- Beland (talk) 07:21, 14 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Ideological cohesion

"The Axis were united in their far-right positions and general opposition to the Allies, but otherwise lacked comparable coordination and ideological cohesion". Is this intended to imply that the Axis were even more diverse ideologically than the Allies were? Even though the Allies included both the US and USSR? 80.41.81.172 (talk) 22:44, 10 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Article Image

Hi, I think the primary image for this article should be image 5 (Axis powers#/media/File:Signing ceremony for the Axis Powers Tripartite Pact.jpg)

I believe this image serves as a better representation of the article since it shows the major leaders of the group compared to the current main image (Axis powers#/media/File:Celebration of the Japan-Germany-Italy-Triparite-Pact (1940) in Tokio.jpg) which only shows one group Tanishq.dubey (talk) 00:17, 22 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 27 March 2025

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Finland should be removed as an axis power from the list of lesser powers OR its role should be fully explained in the article.

Finland was indeed NOT an axis power, it did not sign the triparty agreement or was in alliance with them. However, it did sign the Antikomintern treaty. It is legitimate to discuss the position of Finland during WW2 but the fact that one or even some historians "consider it to be an axis power" does not make it so. Alternatively, the text should be edited so that it clearly states that Finland was not officially an axis power but some historians "consider" it to be. Then the community can elaborate on this and find other historians with opposing view (there are many). Now this is very misleading, as Finland is listed as an axis power but is not even mentioned in the actual article and the article does not discuss the facts, i.e. that Finland refused to sign the triparty pact, did not follow the common goals of the axis, did not give up its jews and for example refused to participate in the siege of Leningrad. It also ignores the fact that Hitler DID pressure Finland to a closer alliance with Germany in summer of 1944 by stopping the food and weapons deliveries to Finland, which lead to president Ryti to personally promise that Finland will stand by Germany, only to renege on this promise two months later by resigning and stating that his personal promise did not bind Finland.

By omitting all these nuances, the article is misleading. So either add this discussion or delete Finland from the list. For example the German version has most of these details about the Finnish-German relationship. The importance of making these changes is demonstrated by the fact that this English Wikipedia article is shared by Russia sympathizers as a proof that Finns were indeed Nazis during the WW2. Like I said, discussion is good but then it needs to be based on the truth, whole truth and nothing but the truth.

Thank you for considering this. I am happy to propose some simple changes as a starting point, although I do not consider myself an expert on ww2. Kuriver (talk) 01:32, 27 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]